Looking to get a snub
 

hey gang, I'm looking in to getting snub and haven't decided on the caliber. Leaning towards 38spl but not sure if it's good defensive round. What you guys think about 38 ?

Update
here is what I ended up buying, mostly because of the prise I paid for it.


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ng03/sw005.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ng03/sw004.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ng03/sw003.jpg

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Get a .357 mag snub then you have two options on ammo. I have a Rossi m88 ss .38spl. I would like to get a Rossi 462 ss in .357. I think .38 is an all right defense round.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Message sent.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I carry a S&W 642-1 Airweight loaded with Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P's everyday. I carry it in a Milt Sparks pocket holster. It is very easy to carry and conceal. I would highly recommend one. I would buy another one for a spare if I could find a decent deal on a pre-lock model.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Probably not a good range weapon though? Stings the hands?

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Yes, it is a handfull with the +P's. :D

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

reply sent

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I've got S&W 642 Air Weight with Speer GD +P's in it also. Currently carrying it with a BH Serpa in in the two o'clock position. May have to look into the MS pocket holster once my VM-2 for my Beretta 92 arrives.
There's many options for carry here except for the several weeks a year that it actually gets hot.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

S&W Model 642 38SP Airweight
Can't go wrong with this one w/laser grips, loaded with Remington Golden Saber HP +P
http://www.popguns.com/images/crimso.../Jframe205.jpg

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

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</td> <td> Vintage Pistols Home >> Range Reports >> Smith & Wesson 642 Range Report

Smith & Wesson Model 642-2 - .38 Special +P Revolver

In my opinion, this is one of the best carry guns ever made - but it is not for everyone. The Smith and Wesson 642 "Airweight" is an aluminum and stainless steel J-frame, 5-shot revolver chambered in .38 Special +P. I was surprised to see that the price for these went up by about $100 since I bought mine a few years back. I've owned this gun for a while and carried it a lot, so I figured I do a range report.
When I first saw and handled this gun, here are the thoughts that went through my mind (in order):

1. Man! That's ugly!
2. Wow! That grip is small; I can barely hold it.
3. Holy cow! Those sights suck.
4. The only thing worse than the sights is the trigger pull.
5. Hmmm. It's light.
6. I guess that .38 +P is a pretty potent caliber in such a small firearm.
7. The laser grips are kinda cool.
8. This thing is smooth; there's nothing on it that can snag.
9. Well, it's a really good price....

Needless to say, I bought it. I haven't regretted it a bit. Here are some facts and my opinions about the 642 (it's up to you to determine which are facts and what is opinion):
<table border="0"> <tbody><tr align="center"> <td colspan="3" align="center"> Click on a picture for a larger image
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The 642 is an enclosed hammer, double action-only revolver with a 1-7/8" barrel. It features a small S&W round butt J-frame grip. The one I bought came with Crimson Trace laser grips (more on those later). I have the 642-2 model; I'm not sure what differentiates this from earlier models but I'm sure that you can look it up if you're curious. It has a smooth (non-grooved) trigger and a serrated ramp front sight. The rear sight consists of a slot cut into the top strap. I didn't know it when I bought it, but this is old-school Smith & Wesson. I've since bought an old M&P from the 40's and Regulation Police from the 20's with the same sight setup. They grow on you. These sights are pretty quick to acquire (once you're used to them), and they generally shoot to point-of-aim with the right load.
The 642 measures 6-1/2" long, 4-1/4" high, 1-5/16" thick, and weighs 17.6 ounces fully loaded with five 158gr LSWCHPs. Its frame is made from aluminum alloy. The cylinder, crane, and barrel (not a sleeve like some of the PD models - it's the whole barrel) are made from stainless steel. I have no idea why they picked this combination of materials, but I assume that the engineers at S&W have it all figured out by now. I've read that the 642 will loosen up with a steady diet of +P loads. However, I've put about 3000 rounds of +P down the pipe (along with a bunch of non +P .38s) and my gun is still tight as a drum. In my opinion, unless you'll be using it as a rental gun, you can run as much +P as you can stand and you won't detect any "loosening" at all. I think this is one of those printed-so-many-times-it-becomes-fact type of myths. If you have one of these, go ahead and "shoot it like you stole it" and not worry a bit.
The Trigger
Like I said, when I bought this, one of my first impressions was that the trigger sucked. Being a novice, I expected to correct this simply by installing lighter springs. I was wrong. I installed reduced power hammer and rebound springs from Wolff Gun Springs. The install is easy for the hammer spring, a bit more difficult for the rebound spring. I'm not going to explain how to do it here because I don't recommend it. After I installed the lighter springs, I think the trigger felt better, but not much. For a while, reliability was good with the new springs. Then one day, I was shooting in cold (11�) temperatures when I had a couple of failure-to-fires. The revolver had been sitting exposed to the cold for an hour or so (long enough to cool down) when it happened. It hasn't happened on factory ammo since. However, if I'm going to depend on this gun, "bang" is infinitely preferable to "click" regardless of the temperature, so I put the stock springs back in it. You may live in a warmer climate - or live in a cold climate and figure that the revolver won't get that cold because you'll be carrying it - but think about maybe leaving this in the car on a cold winter night, and then needing it. I'm not taking any chances. Again, I'm giving the engineers at S&W the benefit of the doubt.
Over time, the trigger felt much better...
Here's the thing: I've put a bunch of rounds through mine, and I've dry-fired it probably 50,000 times. One of my friends recently bought a new 642 and we met up at the range. He had installed the lighter springs, and we were comparing trigger pulls. Mine felt MUCH lighter and smoother, and I had heavier springs installed. If you get one, try dry-firing it a few tens of thousands of times before you do anything to it and you'll probably get the trigger you want. I thought about getting a proper trigger job done on it, but by now I figure it's a fait accompli.
The Grips
I understand that grip choice is personal. What works for me will likely not work for you. Rather than make recommendations, I'll just relate my experiences.

My 642 came with Crimson Trace laser grips. For a long time I used them, and tried to get used to them. I found it hard to see the laser much beyond ten yards in the daytime, and in spite of what the literature said, the laser didn't necessarily turn on when I took a natural grip - I found myself adjusting my grip to get the laser to turn on. When the battery died, I didn't replace it right away and found that I was shooting better without the laser. I sold the laser grips and tried a variety of other types. I found the wooden and hard plastic grips to be too slippery, so I tried some over-molded grips. They're the ones that have a hard plastic core with squishy rubber molded around them. These felt the best and gave the best grip on the gun, but they were big and harder to conceal. The soft rubber also made the gun "sticky" when trying to get it out of a pocket. I pocket carry a lot in the summer, and these grips would turn your pocket inside out on the draw. I finally settled on the stock S&W rubber grips (which are Uncle Mike's Boot Grips). For me, these offer the best combination of concealability, ease of draw, and comfort while shooting.
The Finish
In terms of durability, do not mistake aluminum alloy for stainless steel. The frame of the 642 and other aluminum J-frames like the 637, 317, etc are coated with a clear lacquer to protect the aluminum. If the lacquer is damaged or removed, the frame oxidizes quickly. My experience has been that the lacquer is easily damaged through normal use and/or aggressive cleaning. If you look at the pictures above (especially the one on the bottom left), you'll see that the lacquer on mine is discolored, wrinkled in places, and starting to flake off. I caused this by (stupidly) letting it soak in Hoppes No. 9 overnight. Just carrying it can cause the lacquer to wear. If the gun is in contact with your skin, or gets exposed to sweat - either directly or because your holster absorbs it - you will lose some of the finish. The Model 637 in the photo below belongs to Tele_Mark from NortheastShooters.com. The lacquer wear, and the resulting dark grey areas were caused by sweat while carrying IWB.
As long as you take care of the gun and keep it oiled, the lacquer loss and resulting oxidation is just a cosmetic issue. However, if you don't take care of an aluminum J-Frame with lacquer loss, the results can be very ugly. I was at a shop a while back and the guy had a Model 317 (8-shot .22LR snubbie) in the case for $150. The part of it that I could see looked pretty decent. Since these usually fetch 3 times what he was asking, I asked to take a look at it. He kind of laughed as he opened the case and handed me the revolver. It was nasty. The side that I couldn't see was loaded with 1/16" deep crusty white pits. Have you ever seen an aluminum boat railing that has white pits and crust all over it due to exposure to salt water? Well that's what this gun looked like. I wish I'd taken a picture of it. The owner explained that he got it from a guy that carried it in an ankle holster as a backup gun. The guy pretty much just left it in the holster all the time. After about a year, it was so badly oxidized that the cylinder (which is made of the same alloy as the frame on a 317) wouldn't even turn! If you're going to carry a 642, it's probably a good idea to take it out of it's holster every night and wipe it down.
Shooting the 642
With its tiny grip, long trigger pull, short sight radius, and stout recoil, the 642 is a hard gun to shoot well. It is not a good handgun for a beginner, although I've seen several times where a gun shop employee will go out of his way to try to talk a newbie into one. When I bring this gun to the range, nobody wants to shoot it. Occasionally someone will ask to try it if they're thinking of buying one; and more than once, that person has decided not to get one after shooting mine. When I first tried it, I had a hard time hitting anything with it. If you don't like to practice, this is not the gun for you.
I've found that when most people shoot this for the first time, they grip it too low (as shown on the left below). A low grip makes the recoil feel worse and makes the gun it harder to control during the trigger pull. I found that I get the best results when I grip it as high as possible (as shown on the right).
Look at the "wrong grip". With a low grip, the bore axis is well above your hand. Since you're hanging onto it with only your middle and ring fingers, the muzzle flips up under recoil. Also note where my index fingertip is in the picture - it barely reaches the front of the trigger guard. You end up pulling the trigger with the pad of your finger. This might be fine for a tricked out 1911, but this is a double action revolver with a long, relatively hard pull. Contrast that with the photo on the right. With a high grip, the meaty part of your hand backs up the gun much more, and you're gripping it closer to the bore axis. In addition, you can now use your thumb to help grip the gun. These factors make muzzle flip much easier to control. Your trigger finger now extends well in front of the trigger guard. This allows you to pull the trigger with the first joint of your finger. The increased leverage enables you to pull the trigger faster and minimizes movement of the gun when you do pull the trigger.
With 158 grain ammo, my gun consistently shoots about 3" high and 1" to the right of point-of-aim at 25'. From what I can gather by talking to other 642 owners, this is not typical - theirs shoot very close to point-of-aim. I thought about sending it back to S&W to see if they could correct it, but I've gotten used to it the way it is. It'll make little difference at the range at which this revolver is likely to be used.
Accuracy
There's a somewhat-common misconception that short barreled revolvers are not accurate. While this may be true for some of the cheap brands, the limiting factor on the accuracy of a Smith & Wesson snubbie is not the short barrel, but rather the shooter's ability to repeat and hold a sight picture through the trigger pull. I was present while a couple of people were shooting a used S&W Model 60 (stainless steel J-frame with a 1-7/8" barrel) in a Ransom Rest. Using factory-loaded American Eagle ammo, they put 5 shots into a single ragged hole at 50 feet - every time. I watched an old-timer (I believe he was a retired detective) pick off clay pigeons resting on a berm with a J-frame .38 at 75 yards. Once I realized how accurate these things could be, my shooting actually improved.
When I first got this gun, I couldn't hit anything with it. I use paper plates for targets. The first time I took the 642 to the range, I was putting only two out of five on the plate at 7 yards. Now, after lots of practice (mostly dry firing), shooting offhand I'm now able to quickly put five shots into a 3" group at that distance. When I shoot this gun, I try not to "stage" the trigger; instead I concentrate on executing a smooth continuous pull. I found myself naturally getting faster as I practiced. For live fire practice, I use handloads with the same bullet weight and velocity as my carry ammo (I use 158gr lead round nose bullets for practice). Like anything worth doing, practice with a 642 is work. Nobody is going to describe the 642 as "a pleasure to shoot". I'm no recoil nancy, but after a couple hundred rounds of +P, my hand is going to be a bit sore.
Ammo
For carry ammo, I use +P 158 grain, lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoints from Remington (No. R38S12). Remington calls them "lead hollowpoints". These are similar to the old "FBI Loads". Several manufacturers still make them, but Remington's version (shown in the picture above) has softer lead, and a larger "hollow" in the hollowpoint. These expand OK at snubbie velocities, and unlike some of the fancier "Self Defense" ammo, will expand every time. I hate to sound like an old guy (because I'm not) but if these were good enough for law enforcement for 60 years, they're good enough for me.
Packing It
The 642 carries well. Since it is a 5-shot, it is quite thin for a revolver, and conceals easily. Lot's of people prefer IWB carry for this, I don't. In the summer, I usually wear baggy cargo shorts, and I just throw the 642 into a leg pocket with a Don Hume pocket holster (Awesome holster by the way). I often belt carry in cooler weather when I'm wearing an untucked shirt over a T-shirt or a hooded sweatshirt. For belt carry I use a Gould & Goodrich high-ride pancake holster which I wear at 8:00 (I'm a lefty). I often forget I'm even wearing this rig. It's my favorite carry setup.


Report by EddieCoyle - 2/17/2007


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Re: Looking to get a snub
 

yep....you can comfortably carry it 18 hours a day. What good is a heavier weapon if it's not on your person? I carry in a Galco owb holster. I barely notice it is there.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I've got a model 60 S&W. I've had it for 31 years. [amazing how time flies]

A snub nosed .38 or .38/.357 is a must have. It is a sidearm everyone needs at one time or another. Whatever model/brand you buy, get a stainless steel model.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I do a little amateur gunsmithing for myself and friends and I have an article somewhere on doing an action job on your J-frame. I'll post it if I can find it.
I would not change the springs on this one! With a decent action job these are sweet shooters! I am a firm believer in the Remington Golden Saber ammo for this shooter.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I've been carrying this one, a model 38 S&W airwieght bodyguard for at least ten years. All day every day. Easy to drop in your pocket but most of the time it's in a high rider holster on my belt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...an37879/SW.jpg

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Skip the snub nose, and skip the .38.

If you are contemplating this type of gun, I'd assume you want it for close-in defense. If that's the case, go for something that's going stand a better chance of stopping an assailant right now.

I'd suggest a small frame automatic such as a Colt Defender .45 or something similar.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi/sm/36008.jpg

Colt Defender Semi-Auto Pistol O7000D, 45 ACP, 3", Pebble Finish Rubber Wrap Around Grip, Brushed Stainless Steel Finish, 7 Rd
Stock # [SS36008] $865.50


COLT MFG CO INC Defender Semi Automatic Pistol

Colt 7 + 1 Round 45 ACP w/3" Barrel & Stainless Steel Finish

Colt first introduced the use of a lightweight aluminum alloy in a gun frame in 1948. Building on this experience, the Colt Defender model now offers the power and performance of a full sized .45 ACP pistol in a compact, lightweight carry model. Small, lightweight, accurate, reliable, with excellent sights and able to withstand everyday wear and frequent practice sessions without the need for extensive maintenance.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: O7000D
Category: FIREARMS - HANDGUNS
Type :Pistol
Action :Single
Caliber :45 ACP
Barrel Length :3"
Capacity :7 + 1
Safety :Thumb Safety
Grips :Pebble Finish Rubber Wrap Around
Sights :Fixed White Dot (Front and Back)
Weight :22.5 oz
Finish :Brushed Stainless Steel

You get 3 more rounds in a not very much larger package and a harder hitting round that a .38. As a side benefit autos are also quicker to reload if necessary.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

got a taurus model 85 last month,+p rated, comes with rubber grips. pawn shop for 225.00 it is practically new. great carry pistol,nice trigger. cannot tell difference between it and the smith. had two model 60 stainless over the years, fine weapons also, cost was the decider here. went with safariland speedloaders, a little practice with them, like them better than the hk brand now. detective special or agent by colt another good choice, have owned both, extra shot is nice, they are spendy too.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Disagree... get blued - bright shiny guns reveal locations.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

That's a beauty.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Sorry but I have to disagree, While that Colt is a fine pistol, it�s TOO BIG for easy and comfortable concealment. It�s just about impossible to drop that brick into your front pocket, and getting it out quickly is impossible with that hammer and grip arrangement. Up close (which is what personal defense is) the .38 has plenty of stopping power. Also a DA revolver is easy to shoot, just pull the trigger, in any position with any finger on any hand. Another thing, no slide to rack. I�m not big on carrying a "cocked and locked" pistol that in an emergency you may forget to release the safety on.
Now in a SHTF scenario a big gun with a longer barrel and 15 rounds in the mag WOULD be the choice for me! But my little "Bodyguard" would still have a place in my pocket.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

http://www.gun-review.com/images/uploaded/450_xd-9.jpg

This is my preference. Go with whatever makes you feel safe.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

What about the .44 Special. Highest power to weight ratio snubbie Charter Arms Bulldog....go for the DAO or "hammerless" version for concealed carry. Essentially same muzzle blast and recoil of .38 but bigger, heavier bullet.
My pick........mix radical HPs and Glaser safety slugs....devastating.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

My idea of a snub... holds 10+1 rounds of +P ammo

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Comparative sizes...Glock 26 and S&W 642

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I liked the bulldog I fired, but it bruised my hand which no 38 has. The bump did not interfere with emptying it in the right direction, however, or even hurt. I just saw the bruise later. In a situation where I needed to fire it the bruise would be completely inconsequential, but it sure wasn't same recoil as a 38. It had wood grips and maybe switching grips might make it easier on the hand. I also like the taurus titanium 38. Amazingly light.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I would recommend a S&W model 64 or 65 with a 3" barrel. Perfect carry revolver IMHO.

How is this for a snub?
 

You're not good enough to post here. :wink:

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

SC, you're making me want to go and buy a second GLOCK...

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Sorry about that....NOT. :D

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

A S&W J frame is just a perfect carry gun for so many situations. Yes, I would feel "better armed" with a full size Glock or 1911 but I don't want to carry those things around each and every day of my life.

I normally carry an H&K P7M8. But I have carried my snub Smiths on occasion. I started with a 640-1 in .357 Magnum. I like the whole Centennial design. That solid frame means there is no possibility whatsoever of any hangup or of any pocket crud sneaking down into the gun. No way a loose penny could wedge between the hammer and the side of the shroud like a Bodyguard design. And I personally think even have the possibility of single action is a mistake in these guns. My 640 is perfectly accurate DAO. And I do think it makes sense to buy a .357 Magnum for the versatility. I've been shooting for well over thirty years now so I actually carried full magnums in that gun. But you could shoot .38 +P's out of it until you died of old age and never wear it out.

Then I got the desire for the big bullets and went to the L frame Centennial. The S&W M296 in .44 Special. Carried that gun for nearly three years. Back then the top load was the CorBon 165 grain JHP at 1150 fps. I've retired that gun to secondary house gun and it is now loaded with the new .44 Special champ, the CorBon 200 grain DPX (all copper HP) at 950 fps.

Gregg

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

The picture does NOT do them justice. They are both bright shiney jewels. If you look CLOSELY, you will see they are a sequentially numbered pair... Rossi's 6 shot .357 2" snubbies. I'll have these the rest of my life. I LOVE THIS PAIR OF PISTOLS.

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1200723197

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

These come in 45 ACP. as well. I don't know how practical they are, but I think they look cool.


<TABLE height=239 cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><CENTER> The PC M625</CENTER>

</TD></TR><TR><TD width="50%" height=16><CENTER> http://lewhorton.com/S%26W170266FC.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD width="50%" height=16>Performance Center
45LC Stainless/Scandium 2" bbl FS 6shot Limited Edition.

Part S&W170266FC

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Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Here is what I ended up getting of my friend. It's a s&w airweight.
My snub got ruber grips but looks just like the one in the picture.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...odel38_350.jpg

Paid $190 and 12 pack of heineken.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

The Rossi .38/ .357 is a great pistola. I used to have one until I sold it to a friend and it got eventually so wrapped up in the system that it eventually was left at a pennsylvania gun shop that I guess still have it.

I truly miss that revolver.

Revolvers are great. Buy one. The Rossi or the SW are bgreat ideas on this thread. You will not be dissapointed.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

DAMN! what a deal. Those sell in my area for $400. I carry the same revolver with stag grips.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Yeah, that’s what said. Guy was strapped for cash and needed money for baby formula and dippers. So I helped him out.
I ended up drinking half of his beer too.

P.s. when i get of work I'll post some pictures.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

I think I might copy your stag grip idea and have one for myself, if you don't mind. :wink:

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

what a great buy. good luck!

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Hey Wallew

Did you do an action job on those or leave them stock.

I love the idea of matching snubs.

I think that its called a New York reload.

E-A

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

ToxaThats a great price!@!!!!!I'm thinking I sould let you do my shopping.E-A

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Consider also the RUger SP 101 in 38/357. I recently purchased one and have found it to be VERY rugged and durable. It is a 5 shot, and thus a bit slimmer for easier carry. I put a pair of CTC Crimson Trace laser grips on it for the intimidation factor. The beauty of a revolver when carrying concealed is, among other things, is that it does not spit evidence, er, I mean empty brass, all over the place. Also, the DAO (Double Action Only) hammerless SP101 is quite easy to hide and it has, literally, not a lot of moving parts. No safety. No magazine. Just one push button to open the cylinder.
Maybe it is worth going to the local gun shop and handling a few snubbies? There are some great suggestions and choices posted by the members already in response to your question. :)

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

WOw... Interesting position. My own perspective is that a polished shiney or brushed satin stainless gun is just as concealable on my person (as req'd under FL law) as a blued gun. I find that SS guns tend to hold up better in humidity and sweaty holsters. My position has been that I do not brandish a snubbie for "show". I pull it and a split second later the shootin' starts. So who cares if it is shiney staineless? The laser grips will get the bad guy's attention anyway. I would rather have the stainless durability. Maybe if the bad guy sees the shiney stainless gun with the red dot laser he will at the last second cease and desist, thus saving everyone involved from possible arrest, investigation, et cetera.

I think personal taste also has a lot to do with what finish to pick on a gun. :D

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

Recall... if shooting GLASER or MAGSAFE, you can get the "stoppability" of a much larger caliber like 44 or 45 in just a 38 +P load. Shooting THROUGH glass, doors, etc will not be possible though.
I think it is important that each person carrying ask themselves the potential use and purpose of thier gun. A snubbie is by definition a purely defensive weapon. If you get into an extended fire fight, and by that I mean needing even on ereload, then you have probably badly underestimated your firearms needs, or allowed yourself to slip into a VERY unfavorable position.
Other thoughts from experienced carriers? :)

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

First post update.

Re: Looking to get a snub
 

EA,
Yeah, the triggers 'break like glass'. SMOOOTH, SMOOTH, SMOOTH.

These are sweet shooters and will be used in 'close up' work.

I've got a Dan Wesson six inch for a little longer work.

Folks, I'm getting ready to teach a firearms class to my sister and a few of her friends that live out on ranches in West Texas.

I start the class holding up first a frying pan and then a hammer. I then explain that EACH of these are tools that have specific uses.

I then hold up pistols, shotguns and rifles and tell them that EACH OF THESE TOOLS ALSO HAVE SPECIFIC USES.

After going over the safety rules, we will go out and will shoot pistols first, then rifles and finally shotguns, if they want. While I don't require them to shoot a shotgun, I always recommend that they consider it at least once so they will NOT be surprised with the recoil involved with firing a shotgun.

These are women who are on ranches by themselves or with their childrend the day while 'dad' is off working whatever job they have. Several are quite wealthy, but are just as interested as the poorer ones.